Let's make a deal - - -

I am really, really, really still not over my candidate's loss.

I am really, really, really still unconvinced that the winner can win it all.

But . . .

I am really, really, really at the end of the road.

So . . .

I will try to be a good soldier.  I will try to shut up and get in line.  I will bite my tongue until it bleeds.  (And, believe me.  It will take effort.  Because for the life of me, I just don't get it.  I really wish I did.  It's nice to believe.  But, I just don't get it.)

However, can you meet me (and a lot of others) half way?

Can we avoid Monica references?

Can we avoid calling women "bitch"?

Can we avoid minimizing the reality of sexism in media and politics?

Can we avoid minimizing the truly great accomplishments of the Clinton/Gore administration?

Can we generally stop gratuitously insulting Hillary?  

And, can we even stop to consider how certain things might tick off Hillary's supporters, even if you didn't mean to tick them off?  Just try a little old courtesy and graciousness and manners.  I think of Molly Ivins, who could be a foul mouthed tough son of a gun (daughter of a gun?), but who was warm and gentle and genteel.  And, therefore, very effective at getting people to listen to and follow her.

Finally, can we realize that, until the veep thing is resolved, the scab won't fall off?  Like it or not, while she's still in the mix, well, she's still in the mix.  And, that means it's not really, fully over.  

The sooner we have a ticket, the sooner folks can grow to accept and like the ticket, and the sooner folks will stop getting side tracked on past or side issues (now arising from a vice presidential campaign).  (So, if anyone from the campaign is reading this, unity requires you to make your pick already!)

I will shut up about Campaign '08, and return to diaries about the environment, outdoor living and health.  Please meet me (and all the other Hillary folks) half way.  If you have nothing nice to say about her, just don't mention her.

WARNING:  But if he picks an anti choice vice president . . .


Poll
Anti choice far right Senator Chuck Hagel . . .
is 100% unacceptable.
my cognitive dissonance allows for no other choice.

Votes: 19
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Ugh. And you were doing so well. (2.00 / 4)

I'm with you through most of the diary, up until the VP thing. How about this? Can you admit that it is highly unlikely that Hillary will be the VP choice and you can be pleasantly surprised if she is? Because to continue to talk about it is to try to force a premature VP decision, which isn't going to happen. The VP choice will be logical and strategic in both candidate and timing.

Oh, and stop insinuating that Obama might choose an anti-choice VP. That's ridiculous. We're close though, especially since most of us have never done most of the things you'd like us to stop.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:25:42 AM EST

Thanks for meeting me half way !! (2.00 / 3)

I'm trying to get over, so I'm ignoring what you really said.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:31:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

VP Worries (2.00 / 2)

Don't worry friend. Obama is not stupid enough to pick an anti-choice VP, the media is just bloviating endlessly about a bipartisan ticket like they did in 2004. It will never be Hagel. Obama will pick a strong pro-choice Democrat, for sure.


by Hatch on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:20:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: VP Worries (none / 0)

This is off topic kind of. It does go to relations between the Obama and Clinton supporters And the importance of the VP pic and the timing of naming this pick.

Here's a guess. Sen. Obama and team aren't going to pick Sen. Clinton for VP. The see how unpopulart a decision this is for a lot of the Dem. Party. They know if they name their pick there will be LOTS of negative reaction and the press will eat it up. Happily. Just reporting the news. So in the spirit of control the spin and prevent "blowback" they release rumors. So that instead of one big upset, they have alot of little upsets. And by doing so making the issue older and older news and thus folks (Obama team supporters) can start yelling dead enders quicker.  It's a run on sentence thats talking about a run on issue. Both the sentence and the situations just doesnt end.

Anyone want to make a wager?

Really I thought it was delayed for the convention for suprise. Now? I just think they're trying to let the air out of the "Sen. Hillary Clinton on the Dem. Ticket" balloon.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:00:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for meeting me half way !! (none / 0)

Hey kosnomore. Thanks so much for being willing to come together.

I sort of understand. It took a long, long time for me to forgive what the Dem establishment did to Dean. It took a long time for me to get over Edwards dropping out this time. (I'd been battlin' those Obama snots for a year!)

Remember that, just as a lot of self-proclaimed Hillary "supporters" here and in places like NoQuarter and HillaryIs44 are not representative of Hillary supporters, many of the people here claiming to support Obama are really just here to make trouble. You can tell them on both sides because they never do anything but smear and attack.

Just as most Hillary supporters abhor racism, most Obama supporters abhor sexism, and a person would have to be blind to not see the media's sexist attacks on Hillary that started the second Bill took office, and never stopped (except, on the right, in the brief time towards the end that she was no longer the front-runner).

I don't think Hillary has much chance of being VP unless Bill releases all the records connected to his foundation, but people have a right to cheer for the person they hope for.

Thanks again for seeking to meet halfway. Most of us have no reason to want to go after Hillary now--she supports Obama, she is a great asset, mind and patriot, and I'd like to see her in a leading, not a following, position (ie, Sec of State, Senate Majority Leader, Supreme Court Justice, etc).

Let's come together to prevent the Bush III Armagheddon that would ensue if McSame took office.


by rhetoricus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:23:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't suck it up (2.00 / 1)

a very small request was too much for you.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:57:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

On the other hand, cat - - (2.00 / 1)

it proves it's a mutual problem, and we have to ALL agree to meet half way.  And, some trouble makers never will.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:01:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree it's mutual (2.00 / 1)

It has been very unbalanced. Do you think the Hillary booing the other night at Obama's rally and the nastiness of the primary season toward Hillary and her supporters was equally matched? Should we pretend it's not a problem for the G.E.?


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm just not going there any more. (2.00 / 2)

It's over, and what will be will be.
Our input is neither wanted nor appreciated, so . . .
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:14:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agree with you there (2.00 / 1)

OK.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:24:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not trying to pot stir (none / 0)

Ah if all of life were this easy. It's not.

Only good thing out of this is I've made my decision on who I'll vote for. Going to be an easy summer. Just sit back and enjoy.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:05:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree it's mutual (2.00 / 3)

"Denver! Denver! Denver!"
"I want you to join me in supporting Barack Obama" "NEVER!!!!"
Or you could just replace the DNC meeting.

Yeah, I think it was matched.  The difference- I didn't hear anyone defending Obama on stage.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:23:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Shouting "Denver" = pro-Hillary (2.00 / 1)

but I guess liking Hillary offends you.

The DNC meeting - since Obama took his name off the ballot let's take some delegates from Hillary and give them to him.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:25:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not exactly (2.00 / 3)

More like: Shouting "Denver" = anti-Democrat

Every person that puts party in front of the individual, including Hillary Clinton, agrees that taking it to the convention would be essentially conceding the election.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:30:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Elections are competitive (2.00 / 1)

coronations are anti-Democratic.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you think this was a coronation... (2.00 / 1)

...you haven't been paying much attention for the last six months.

2004 and 2000... THOSE were basically coronations.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't feed the fish (2.00 / 1)

..or the trolls. I haven't seen this particular one do anything here except stir shit. Have you?

You're points are always right on, but trolls, in the end, I think need to be starved.


by rhetoricus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shouting "Denver" = pro-Hillary (2.00 / 3)

And shouting "never!" and "McCain!" at her speech when she mentioned Barack Obama is what?

You can't take the least offensive thing out of the post and expect people to not notice that you're cherry-picking.  I mean it's RIGHT THERE.

Besides, don't tell me you haven't heard booing at the mentioning of Obama's name.  We all have - this goes all the way back to Bill Clinton's rally in Tennessee right after South Carolina.

These are old grievances, but whenever people try to act like only one side is guilty, it means we have to rehash them again.  Which might have been what you were aiming for - I can't tell anymore.


If you hold a cat by the tail you learn things you cannot learn any other way.
by Jess81 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:31:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shouting "Denver" = pro-Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Exactly.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:00:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And can we agree Obama dealt... (2.00 / 1)

...with it nicely?

If you hold Obama... or even his "supporters"... accountable for every "booer"  we'll never get on.


by Lieber on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree it's mutual (none / 0)

Oh, come on.  I was there at that rally.  The booing was primarily aimed at Granholm, not Clinton.  It was counterproductive.  But don't you think it's more significant that Gore's comments about HRC were received warmly and Obama's 'rebuke' and his tributes to both Granholm and Clinton were enthusiastically received at a volume that dwarfed the former.  People here are pissed at our Governor who helped screw up our primary and then tried to use the mess she created to her candidate's advantage.

Then again...if your overriding interest lies in nursing a grievance then context will not be of interest to you in any case.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:22:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why boo Granholm? (2.00 / 2)

It was rude and counterproductive.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:31:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why boo Granholm? (none / 0)

I agree.  And I have said so.  Gore Obama agreed vocally and they received overwhelming support.  But just because the mode of demonstrating objection was objectionable, that does not mean that there was no reason to object.  Many of us feel that Granholm's handling of the primary fiasco was irresponsible and manipulative.  You may not agree.  Fine.  

My point was that focusing on a minority of people who booed, ignoring the context and claiming that the booing was primarily aimed at Clinton, and completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority followed Gore and Obama in both disapproving of the booing and applauding the tributes to both Granholm and Clinton.  There will always be fools and obnoxious jerks.  Why not focus on the fact that the democratic nominee got 20,000 people including many families with young children on a school night and turned it into a massive and effective voter registration drive (as I emphasized in a diary yesterday).  Fixating on 2 seconds of booing and misrepresenting the context is ludicrously counterproductive.  It was an overwhelmingly positive event for ALL democrats.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:58:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why boo Granholm? (2.00 / 1)

Do you ever stop pissing and moaning?

Oh wait, I think I get it now. This election is about YOUR sensiblities, your fragile feelings, and the respect YOU deserve,

Silly me, thinking this election was about ending a war, making healthcare available and affordable to all, cutting taxes for and growing the middle class, taking care of our veterans, etc.

Get over it. Some people are assholes that supported both candidates. But it has absolutely nothing to do with how Obama will run this country.

In other words....


Two riders were approaching......the wind begins to howl!
by John in Chicago on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No no dear. (1.00 / 0)

I just want people to be factual and truthful. The only sensitivity I have is to blatant bullshit.

Got it?

I don't care who wins this election. OK I have a slight preference but I'm prepared for either outcome, even for Obama to win.


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 04:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No no dear. (2.00 / 1)

So you're indifferent as to whether the next President is a Democrat or a Republican (I notice that you cryptically refer to a "slight" preference while making pretty clear that it's not the Democratic nominee).

OK, so you're basically a republican, or some variant. And yet you post almost obsessively at a blog dedicated to electing Democrats (after being banned for trolling at another one).

Do you just want a hug? Or some kind of attention? Is being an internet troll really the best use of your talents?

This is such an old routine.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 08:53:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree it's mutual (none / 0)

I was one of the people enraged at Granholm. She helped disenfranchise us, then tried to politicize it and turn our ire on the candidates, as though it was their problem or their issue to resolve. She needed to hear from us who never got a voice because of her and others like her.


by rhetoricus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:29:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree it's mutual (none / 0)

I absolutely agree on Granholm, but disagree that booing in that setting was an appropriate way to convey it.  Regardless, those in this thread who choose to exploit that moment out of context in order to nurse grievances help obscure what was a great and effective event.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 06:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Free advice Grasshopper (2.00 / 3)

The only things we can control are our own actions.  

If the diarist needs me & everyone else on My DD to do A, B & C before he supports Obama then he is fooling him/herself. He/she is the one who has to work through this.  Obama won't be a better candidate if I stop saying Hillary is a poor VP choice.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:52:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We have to do no such thing. (2.00 / 1)

If you want to win votes, you would listen to the diarist. Are you Repug?


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We have to do no such thing. (none / 0)

Nope, life long Democrat.  The diarist was writing Obama hit piece diaries earlier in the week.  I feel safe disregarding his/her opinions on how to win in November.      


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:42:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We have to do no such thing. (2.00 / 1)

Actually, I'd say a Repug would be someone who wanders through the threads denying the legitimacy of the Democratic nominee and looking for any reason to stir up trouble over the now-finished primaries. I've begun a list. Care to look under "C"?


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:11:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 3)

I don't see anyone doing these:

Can we avoid Monica references?

Can we avoid calling women "bitch"?

Can we avoid minimizing the reality of sexism in media and politics?

Can we avoid minimizing the truly great accomplishments of the Clinton/Gore administration?

Can we generally stop gratuitously insulting Hillary?  

But sure, fine.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:25:59 AM EST

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 2)

there is one poster here (name begins with Gr) and s/he does the Monica/stain references a lot.


by colebiancardi on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:39:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 3)

Well if we're calling out individual posters, I could make a litany of requests for people to stop using GOP frames to bash the nominee as well.  Frankly, I'd start with the poster of this diary.  But I won't.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:22:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 4)

Your honesty and candor are appreciated.  

I say no to Hagel and to Webb.  If Obama wants to go with someone with military credentials, I cannot see a better choice than Hillary supporter Wesley Clark.  


by ProfessorReo on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:26:12 AM EST

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 2)

I like Anthony Zinni, personally.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:49:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you want honesty or pandering? (2.00 / 4)

I'm all for being careful not to gratuitously insult Clinton or her supporters, but you have to realize that honesty is honesty, and some people have viewpoints that you disagree with that aren't trying to troll you.

You also need to realize that, just as you can take things the wrong way, Obama supporters don't take kindly to what are seen as mean-spirited attacks, either... and quite frankly said attacks have a certain amount more relevance, because he is the all-but-certain nominee.

I'm in favor of everybody getting a thicker skin and realizing that we've got to face some hard realities if we're going to beat the Republicans.  This is not a blanket approval of "concern" diaries, but it is an appeal to realism.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:30:35 AM EST

Unity or triumphalism? (2.00 / 1)

Easy choice to me.
I'm just offering to BOTH sides:  from here on, if you have nothing nice to say . . .
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:37:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So what are you going to do? (2.00 / 4)

If you see someone posting something you don't like, are you going to go back to specious concern diaries in retribution?

There's no possible way that we can know what's going to be posted in the next four months; the only way for you to improve the tenor is to stick to your own beliefs and set a positive example.  I've been here promoting Obama for several months now, but I've actively taken those who are attacking Clinton for stupid reasons to task; I think that, overall, the tenor of the conversations has improved due to the attitudes of Obama supporters like Student Guy, Veteran75, and myself.

So, do you want to be part of the solution?  If so, do what you say you want to do regardless of whether anyone else signs on to your request.  Take the high road, because there are jagbags on both sides, as well as jagbags on neither side, who will work to divide us with unkind rhetoric.

Your reaction to this will be important to your future on this site.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:46:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what are you going to do? (none / 0)

Your reaction to this will be important to your future on this site.

WTF?!  Are you threatening kosnomore?  You're better choice of words might enhance your position, regardless of your opinion of your participation.

...conversations has improved due to the attitudes of Obama supporters like Student Guy, Veteran75, and myself.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:03:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't be serious (2.00 / 1)

kosnomore is routinely treated like a troll or a joke here because he/she/it just as routinely scandalmongers like crazy against Obama (Obama and Scarlett Johannsen? Really?).

I'm telling him/her/it that leading by example is the best way to change the attitude of the site; what he/she/it does at this juncture is important to his/her/it's future on this site, because it will determine whether the rest of the site takes him/her/it seriously or not... not because I have some sort of power to do something nasty.  I have no special powers.

You would actually do to listen to such advice; overreacting about a minor protocol breach in an Indiana polling place or rambling about Rezko don't do your credibility any favors, either.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:12:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you all STFU ????? (1.50 / 2)

The purpose of the diary was to put yesterday behind us - -
you really can't help yourselves, can you?

John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:16:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thicker skins, like I said. (2.00 / 2)

Relax, I'm just trying to put things into context.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:18:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you all STFU ????? (2.00 / 1)

Maybe it's just like you said- perhaps you've stepped on some toes around here, and it'll take some time before we unite behind you?

Keep in mind, as late as last night you were posting speculous, inaccurate diaries smearing our candidate.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:25:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

So you and anna etc. (1.00 / 0)

can't even graciously accept surrender.
I think you will MISS the fights.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:54:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So you and anna etc. (none / 0)

Hey, I welcome you on board, if you are in fact on board.  But I have to say I've got my doubts.


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:12:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Unity or triumphalism? (2.00 / 3)

if you have nothing nice to say . . .

Don't say that the other side has "cognitive dissonance"?

I'll be honest: I could deal with asking whether or not someone who is winning by every single measure could win in the end. After all, as a Hillary supporter, you had your front-runner fall short due to a number of campaign mismanagements and incorrect predictions.

However, it's very difficult to take the "everyone should play nice" high ground while stating in your poll that everyone who disagrees with your position has "cognitive dissonance". If you want to change the way things work, lead by example.


by TCQuad on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:46:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There should be no sexism or bashing (2.00 / 3)

of the Clintons.  Period.

It's stupid of Obama supporters to even think of doing that now.

You have a deal as far as I'm concerned.


by Geekesque on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:47:02 AM EST

Re: There should be no sexism or bashing (none / 0)

Remember its a two way street so it qwould awfully stupid for a Clinton Supporter to even think about bashing Obama or Michelle in any way too.  Even if HRC is not the VP pick.  Deal?


by KLRinLA on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:07:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Show those people 'No Quarter.' eom (none / 0)


by Geekesque on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 05:16:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You might as well ..... (2.00 / 2)

ask for gas prices to go back to 1972 levels.

"Can we generally stop gratuitously insulting Hillary? "

This will never stop, because some of the folks around the blogosphere for some insane reason have nothing but contempt for her.  It's hopeless.  They need a 12 step intervention, but they won't take the first step and admit the problem.  Even declaring your support for their guy doesn't stop the invective towards Hillary or some of her supporters for the folks I refer to.

Give up, I did.  I just acknowledge it and move on, thinking one day their bile will eventually become their own self made problem.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:47:13 AM EST

You May Be Right... (2.00 / 2)

But that doesn't mean that you can't call them out on it. We'll denounce the crazy Clinton haters, we'll denounce the crazy Obama haters, we'll all stand together.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 4)

Deal. Just please don't blame others for the stupid things that other commenters may post. I can't control them.


"Hey, check it out. You just had yourself a glue OD. So you're learning another lesson. Don't do too much glue, or your night sucks."
by vcalzone on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:47:27 AM EST

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 2)

Can we avoid Monica references?
Can we avoid calling women "bitch"?
...

Can we stop holding people responsible for other people who are completely outside of their control?
Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:49:26 AM EST

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 2)

Can we stop holding people responsible for other people who are completely outside of their control?

NEVER!

According to my list, I'm holding you personally accountable for the Lakers' poor defense, McCain's position on Iraq and the second season of Lost.

Please apologize at your earliest convenience.

And then apologize for not apologizing sooner.


by TCQuad on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 1)

Don't listen to TCQuad. I would like to thank you for the Laker's poor defense.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:55:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (none / 0)

I have previously established my Celtics fan status (along with the Sox later in that thread), but the Lakers' poor defense sucked the excitement out of the middle of that game. After a quarter and a half, the game was basically a gigantic countdown with no suspense.

I actually think my favorite part of the game was the last few minutes, when people like Big Baby and Powe and Allen, who have stepped up in spots during the year, got to come onto the court and close out the game. Of course, the fact that they came in with a lead of 35 and stretched it to 39, that was just plain hysterical. By the end, I was rolling on the floor in laughter as Tony Allen was getting an alley oop dunk on Sasha Vujacic. The Lakers couldn't guard a fourth string guard with an Achilles injury!


by TCQuad on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Counteroffer (2.00 / 2)

I am ignoring your VP worries, for I do not see it in the realm of possibility that he will pick Hagel or Casey, the only two anti-choice candidates that the media love to salivate about.

Obama won't do it, so your worries are misplaced.

I accept your terms, so long as you stop with the innuendos that Obama won unfairly, ran a sexist campaign, and can't win in the fall.  Further, any smear originating at any anti-Democratic site (like No Quarter and Hillary is 44) cannot pass your lips.

Deal involve compromise.  You cannot expect to accept your terms if you cannot accept ours.  

And I am not saying you personally have engaged in the above activity.  You may have, I don't know.  But I am willing to accept your characterizations of Obama supporter's activities, even though I know that I have not done what you suggest.  So don't get personally offended.

Deal?


by Delaware Dem on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 09:53:01 AM EST

So if voters are hesitant (1.00 / 0)

you don't want to know? Is this the head-in-the-sand generation?


by catfish2 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ostrich analogy overplayed (2.00 / 3)

Just because someone doesn't freak out over concern trolling does not mean that they're sticking their head in the sand.

The ostrich thing is getting kinda old already.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:14:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So if voters are hesitant (2.00 / 1)

That's not what the polls are showing. And besides, we all read the news so why would someone rush to a Dem site to breathlessly point out that our Dem nominee is doing poorly (in case that were to ever happen)?


by Becky G on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:28:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So if voters are hesitant (2.00 / 1)

If the voter are hesitant it isn't because of anything written over at No Quarter or Hillary isn't 44. If you have legitimate concerns about Obama or his agenda then I would love to hear them.  Right now the country isn't focused on GE so it is the right time to have such conversations.  

Instead we hear statements about how Obama can't win in November or about how Obama ran a sexist campaign. Those criticisms aren't constructive and they don't do anything besides pick at old wounds.  

It really isn't that hard to raise legitimate criticisms of Obama.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:34:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So if voters are hesitant (none / 0)

I think most honest Clinton supporters have accused the MEDIA of sexism, but have not accused the Obama campaign of overt sexism.  They did, however, benefit from the media sexism, and didn't rebuke events that occurred that provided them an assist.  That's politics, point to Obama.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:45:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So if voters are hesitant (2.00 / 2)

The honest Clinton supporters were never a problem and never will be.  They know what is at stake in November and they don't need to be coaxed into supporting Obama.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So if voters are hesitant (none / 0)

No one is asking to be 'coaxed'.  Folks are just tired of having their noses rubbed in newly dropped piles, and are asking for that to cease.  They will still pull the lever for the Democrat in the GE, but  all this junk of constantly making 'us' out to be bad people, or our first choice as a bad person is just ,well, juvenile.  It's time to stop.  We have other things to focus on other than how much some folks want to continue to destroy Hillary and anyone who gets in their way of doing so.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:21:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So if voters are hesitant (2.00 / 1)

I have found that most, if not all, of the diaries on this site about Hillary are posted by Hillary supporters.  I would be quite happy to never talk about Hillary Clinton again.  If you guys want to focus on other things then please do.  If you want to keep posting diaries about Hillary then expect to have to deal with people who don't particularly care for her.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:34:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As I said, I'm ready to STFU on this - - - (2.00 / 2)

but I'd LOVE to see Obama folk TR/HR the anti Hillary, too late to matter, no upside, no help, things I list.  Not HRC folk, but Obama folk.  Agreed?  Like, next time there's a "sexism, ain't no sexism!" diary.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:05:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

whenever there's blatant (none / 0)

sexism, I will speak out against it.


by slinkerwink on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:09:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No deals (2.00 / 1)

If you can't support the presumptive Democratic nominee because it is the right thing to do then please continue to do what you are doing.  

We are going to try and win this thing with or without your help.  It would be appreciated if you got on board but it certainly isn't required.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 10:44:12 AM EST

Re: No deals (none / 0)

This reads to mean:

"We reserve the right to say whatever we please, no matter how insulting, and expect you to absorb any offense because we don't need nor want you anyway."

Sorry, that's just how some of us see it, and some of us have declared our intent to vote for the Democratic nominee in the GE, and still we get this arrogance.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:26:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (2.00 / 1)

I agree, this is not helpful.  And emsprater, I hope you know this is not the message of the Obama campaign.  He can't be held to account for the comments of random blog posters (myself included of course).  As an Obama supporter, I welcome your joining the team, and hope that you can support Obama with the same intensity with which you support Senator Clinton.  That said, these kinds of posts are annoying.  I don't hold Senator Clinton responsible for hillaryis44, or blog posters, or even the anonymous sources who run their mouths to journalists.  She has been excellent, and I can't hide my enthusiasm when I think about her and Obama on the trail together, or her out there as a surrogate.  I think they will be force to reckoned with.  We do need you, and want you to be apart of moving this country forward.


by cycl06 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (2.00 / 1)

Thanks.  Some of us do understand that the message of the Obama campaign does not include constant denigration of Hillary.  We also understand that they will be working together, and will be a true force to be reckoned with, if some folks will cease their attempts to make Hillary the fool.

I don't understand some folks obsession with the NoQuarter and Hillaryis sites, I've never visited either because I know of their reputation, just like I've never visited RedState because I know of it's rep.  Knowing a cesspool is a cesspool should stop one from stepping into it, but I see that for some, foreknowledge doesn't suffice.

Some of us ARE there for the GE and the fight to come, some aren't.  It doesn't help to have folks continually saying "so what".

Thanks again for a nice commentary.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:55:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, some folks WANT the fights - (1.00 / 0)

why?


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:56:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Again, some folks WANT the fights - (2.00 / 1)

There are a myriad of reasons some ppl want the fights.  They may dislike Senator Clinton so much they won't let it go, they don't have patience, they might not care, etc, etc, etc.  I would suggest not judging the candidates by people's actions online.  Of course, we all gain insights, and ideas from others in the communities in which we participate, but we have to keep some perspective for ourselves.  I would suggest that its your issues keeping you from supporting Obama.  You will have to work it out.  The Obama campaign has been gracious as has Senator Clinton's.  I don't think there's anything anyone here can do for you, as you've obviously been greatly affected by the primary.  I would suggest taking a break from this, recalibrating, and start to view this election in the general election mode.  If/Once you are able to do that, I think the choice for progressives is clear.


by cycl06 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

The right thing for a Democrat to do is support Obama.  Don't expect me to praise you for doing the right thing.  For a Democrat it shouldn't be a tough choice.  The fact that 80%+ of Democrats have already figured this out means that the diarist and others like him/her are a vocal minority that are in no position to ask for a deal.  

If you think that is arrogant then so be it.  It doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:43:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Slap a hand reached out in conciliation? (1.00 / 0)

Nice.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:57:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Puhleeze (none / 0)

Negotiation 101.  We don't need anything from you. As a result there is no need to accept your "deal" or even "negotiate" with you.

IMO, it is better to remind people who post anti-Obama diaries, such as yourself, that the rest of us are moving on without you guys.  Stay unconvinced as long as you want.  We will win this thing with or without you.  It is your choice.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:08:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"We don't need anything from you"? (1.00 / 0)

"We will win this thing with or without you"?
Obama folk:  this is what I'm waiting for you guys to police.  I thought you want 100% demo support.  I'm trying.  You need to handle our own.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:28:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We don't need anything from you"? (none / 0)

You never get 100% of any group.  It is a mistake to try.    We can leave you behind and win this thing. Don't worry about it.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"We can leave you behind and (1.00 / 0)

 win this thing. Don't worry about it."
LOL.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:54:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "We can leave you behind and (none / 0)

We can we dont need the "person" Kosnomore to win this election, at this point you are a liability.

We need to be fired up, not concerned.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:01:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL - you re funny. (2.00 / 1)


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL - you re funny. (2.00 / 1)

really.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL - you re funny. (none / 0)

Im honored, really.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

Actually, I'm no longer a Democrat, I am now NPA  after the treatment of Florida Democrats, some of us decided to make that switch.  I still have Democratic party ideals and goals, and know where the rubber meets the road as far as getting America's future set in the correct direction.  Before you denigrate me for that decision, remember that Obama is where he is today because of the support of NPA voters in states where they are allowed to 'crossover'.

I've declared my intent to vote for Obama.  I don't expect praise for that.

I do think it's arrogant to reserve the option to denigrate the candidate who was supported by close to half the voters in the primary, and I won't praise you for that.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:01:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

I do think it's arrogant to reserve the option to denigrate the candidate who was supported by close to half the voters in the primary, and I won't praise you for that.

That was your interpretation of what I wrote.  It was incorrect.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

Try to control your surprise at her error.



McCain
by Black Anus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:04:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

Insults, de rigueur, I see.

You can't even get the gender correct.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:18:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

You are the biggest whiner on the internets besides Edgar08.



McCain
by Black Anus on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:27:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

I say this with all sincerity, you are hereby cordially invited to don your finest formal attire and align your lips with the lower end of my alimentary canal.

Stop the stalking.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You remind me of Hitler (none / 0)

Really.



McCain
by Black Anus on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 12:32:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You remind me of Hitler (none / 0)

Fuck off.  Really.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Thu Jun 19, 2008 at 09:23:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No deals (none / 0)

Sometimes in this type of discourse, perception is reality.  If you do not think so, I suggest you remember the hype over the use of the word 'fairytale'.

I stand by the interpretation of your underlying meaning, but I will accept your insistence that you meant otherwise.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:14:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let's make a deal - - - (2.00 / 2)

Calling women "bitch" is a problem in modern vernacular which you can't command an end to. That said, serious commenters and bloggers at this and other legit sites don't do it. General idiots, trolls, and sockpuppets do it either because they're crude assholes or because they know it pisses people off.

Anyone minimizing the reality of sexism in American society is making a piss-poor argument. However, the impact of sexism on the primary campaign and the size of its role on the outcome are debatable topics about which people of good-faith can hold different opinions.

The Clinton presidency had many great accomplishments, but it's not above criticism, especially among progressives. Some of us saw in those years, in addition to a level of prosperity and progress, troubling trends toward compromise and a dilution of the Democratic identity. These discussions have been a staple of the left blogosphere for as long as it's existed.

I haven't seen many if any Monica references coming from anyone but obvious trolls or malicious small-minded passers-by. However, when talking about the 90s, there's going to be some legitimate disillusionment with the character of Pres. Clinton, and a sense of opportunity lost and potential unrealized. That can't be denied. One also can't deny history, and the fact that these events helped fuel the growth of the right-wing noise machine (and turned impeachment into a partisan tactic rather than a consitutional imperative). These topics are going to surface at a Democratic blog and can and should be discussed with tact and integrity, trolls nothwithstanding.

Gratuitous insults of any Democrat are pretty much unacceptable. Legitimate, good-faith criticism aimed at improving our candidates, policies, and governance are necessary, however.

While certain things may bother those who supported Clinton's candidacy, nobody is going to walk on eggshells. In political forums, elbows are going to be thrown, and the refs are almost never watching. The best way to avoid feeling ticked off is to stop bringing up Hillary Clinton, and rehashing a primary battle that's over. People are eager to move on to the fight against John McCain and the other GOP candidates, and to electing Obama and other Democratic candidates. If you keep picking at your own scab, you're inevitably going to draw those who are glad to help you.


"This victory alone is not the change we seek -- it is only the chance for us to make that change." -- Nov. 4, 2008
by BobzCat on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:22:43 AM EST

aren't we (none / 0)

supposed to be talking about the weather?


Visit us at TexasKAOS, where we're taking Texas back!
by annatopia on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:30:10 AM EST

Anna, thx for TR rating offers of conciliation (1.00 / 0)

you got a great team spirit on ya'!


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 11:58:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anna, thx for TR rating offers of conciliation (none / 0)

Just more evidence that the 'unity pony' for some folks only has two legs.  They don't want to recognize the other two legs that are required to be behind the front two legs.  Sadly, the back two legs are supporting the very portion of the 'unity pony' some of them most resemble.

It takes all four legs for the 'unity pony' to run the race.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Some just want to fight - - - (1.00 / 0)

even if they have to invent enemies, and continue fighting with themselves.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some just want to fight - - - (none / 0)

And some, like you, keep bringing up issues of the past, just so you can continue trying to divide us. Why Cliinton supporters keep engaging and agreeing with you, ven knowing that you're a troll here, is beyond me.


by venician on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some just want to fight - - - (none / 0)

perhaps some of us do not consider kosnomore a 'troll'.

Labels have caused much division in this primary, yet folks can't keep from resorting to them.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 02:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the problem is (none / 0)

that some of the Clinton supporters consistently refer to Obama in the most vile of terms and to think that the true supporters of our nominee aren't going to call them on it...and kosnomore most of your diaries are truly not helpful in that regard.
But your concern is duly noted.
"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:05:33 PM EST

Did you read this diary? (2.00 / 1)

Really, did you READ it?  Or, are you on auto-fight mode.


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:21:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you read this diary? (none / 0)

I said it before & I'll say it again - she is a troll because she just plops down divisive comments and leaves

someone mentioned the unity pony needing four legs.  I think she doesn't get it.


by colebiancardi on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you read this diary? (2.00 / 1)

I like her.  I think maybe you don't understand her point.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you read this diary? (none / 0)

fine - you like her.  But every post I've seen from her has either been attacking the Clintons or "older" women.

she knows that will get a rise out of people - hence the trollish behavior

I got her point and it has nothing to do with this diary.  


by colebiancardi on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 12:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you read this diary? (none / 0)

awwww...so now poor Cole feels that I'm attacking older women, huh? Do you ever stop playing the sympathy card?

And what exactly is "my point" oh wise one?


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Wed Jun 18, 2008 at 01:06:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Did you read this diary? (none / 0)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You just made my point.  lol


by