Hillary was 44

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Hillary was 44 during by far most of 1992, when the photo at right was taken.  This was the "Hillary headband" era, of which Google Images coughs up not a single shot.

She was gorgeous.  Pretty, yes - and that hairband showed she had her funky style - but not even primarily due to that.  It was her very being, her gestalt.  She was smart, successful, witty, exhilirating.  Two other women in contemporary politics spring to mind as examples of her type: they are -- not coincidentally -- Michelle Obama and Elizabeth Edwards.

If you liked smart women, strong women, kind and caring women, women who rejected cultural limitations, women who could compete with the men and be better than the men, then you looked at Hillary and thought that one reason to support Bill was that he had somehow been good enough to land the likes of her.

What Bill Clinton seemed to be to George H.W. Bush, she seemed to be to Barbara Bush.  The antithesis.  The negation.  The cure.

(1) Cookies

Hillary was 44 in March 1992, when she said this:

I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession which I entered before my husband was in public life.

I was teaching Political Science -- American Politics, Public Opinion -- at the University of Illinois when she said that.  Oh, I knew, everyone knew, that that was some baaaaaad politics there.  And yet I could not stop grinning ear to ear.  This woman had the temerity -- shocked! shocked! -- to explain the plain truth to the public that she valued her career, her brainpower, her sense of self too much to pretend to hide her candle under a bushel.

Nowadays, that is nothing revolutionary.  Look, again, at Elizabeth Edwards, Michelle Obama.  Obama was 28 then (she is 44 now, though she will turn 45 a few days before her husband is inaugurated); Edwards turned 43 that year, but had made her career choices well before her husband's political career was anywhere near the horizon.  For an aspiring first lady to say, as if it were a self-evident truth, that of course she should be considered an equal partner, and equally competent adult, in her own life was a splash of ice water in the public's face.  For feminists like my then-wife and our circle of friends, it was as exciting as if we were gays watching a politician come out on national TV and say "sure I'm gay, you have a problem with that?"

This sort of thing was not done.  And then, it was done.

Hillary got slapped down, of course, and had to be contrite, but no one had to wonder what she was thinking as she dropped "Rodham" in favor of "Clinton" and offered to submit a cookie recipe to women's magazines.  As with Galileo when he was forced to recant his stance that the Earth was stationary, on being told that the role of the First Lady as auxiliary to the husband was eternally fixed, one could hear her thoughts with ringing clarity: "eppur si muove.  "And yet it does move."

(2) Compromise

Hillary was 44 when the progressive world almost came crashing down, on June 29, 1992.

Just over four months before the 1992 election, the Supreme Court decided Planned Parenthood v. Casey.  That is "Casey" as in Pennsylvania Governor Bob Casey, father of the current Senator, whom Bill Clinton would not allow to speak at the 1992 convention because of the widespread expectation that he would use his national forum to excoriate the party on the issue of abortion and possibly leave without endorsing the ticket.

We pro-choice advocates had expected to lose Roe once Clarence Thomas replaced a dying and - after Bush's victory in the Gulf War - discouraged Thurgood Marshall.  Abortion rights had been secured for 19 years, and that looked like it would be the full run.  Casey was the first facial challenge to Roe v. Wade.  Only two Justices, Blackmun and Stevens, were reliable votes in favor of it.  Neither swing votes O'Connor or Kennedy had ever had to address a facial challenge against Roe.  Neither of their votes were expected to be decisive anyway, because Bush appointee David Souter was fully expected to join Rehnquist, Scalia, newly appointed Clarence Thomas, and lone anti-Roe Democrat Byron White in overturning Roe.

Casey came out on the last day of the 1991-92 term.  Among feminists, the air that day was funereal.  When it came out, it turned that much of the nibbling away at Roe's edges had been successful.  But amazingly - so amazingly that it didn't even sink in at first - Roe itself had been affirmed.  David Souter had burst out of his conservative cocoon to become a moderate-liberal butterfly.  Not only that, we later learned, but he had actually snatched the vote of Anthony Kennedy away from the Rehnquist's majority at the last minute.

The progressive movement -- as stunned at the failure to take back the White House in 1988 after eight years of Reagan as it would be in 2004 after four years of G. W. Bush - was flat on its back.  After the success of the Gulf War, when G. H. W. Bush's ratings hit 90 or so in March of 1991, the progressive movement was flat on its back.  Casey merely underlined the cost of failure.  We had just about lost the Supreme Court; Casey would have been the coup de grace.

The Democratic field in 1992 was considered weak, as Bush's post-war popularity kept the strongest candidates out of the race.  Mondale's traditional liberalism had not done the trick in 1984; Dukakis's post-ideological pragmatism had not done the trick in 1988.  The Democratic Party was on the verge of lasting damage - of a sort one could imagine if we were to somehow lose the Presidency this year and lose ground in Congress.  Parties thrive as coalitions of believers, followers, and pragmatic opportunists.  Had the Democrats lost in 1992, it would have become a stupid choice for anyone with serious national political ambitions to become a Democrat unless they simply couldn't help it.  There was too much money and influence behind the Republicans.

Bill Clinton did what he thought he had to do to win: he embraced corporate America.  (So had Jimmy Carter, for that matter, in his campaign sixteen years previous.)  You compromise a fair amount with corporate America, and they give you money - it was as simple as that.  Money was most of what mattered in those days, and corporate interests didn't mind a President who would tinker around with reformist impulses in some areas so long as in the main he let them do what they wanted when it came to deregulation and trade.

Now, maybe Clinton did it with too much relish and too little care.  I think he did.  But at the same time, had he not won the Presidency in 1992, I don't think we would have much of a progressive movement left at all today.  Republican Presidencies in the 1990s, combined with a compliant Congress, would have given us the horrors of the 2000s earlier, without the benefit of the "years of plenty" we had built up beforehand to help us withstand them.  We would have had a stronger and more pure Left, it is true, but one much like the Left in Mexico, which thanks to plutocratic domination and corruption is in no danger of being allowed to win significant federal power anytime soon.  (That may be true of us here as well, but I like our chances more.)

Winning, in other words, was the only thing that mattered.  That is the national political culture in which Bill and Hillary came of age.  They had to adapt to it.  It wasn't pretty.  It left its marks.  But, at the same time, they brought home the goods for their party - at least the power to control events, if not complete freedom over where to go.  They had learned to compromise on some areas of substance and give no quarter when it came to taking power.  They did both, and won.

(3) Competing

Hillary was 44 until one week before her husband was elected to the Presidency.  That contest shaped her.  It was a time before You Tube and automatic dissemination of gaffes via video.  It was a time before the popular advent of the Internet.  It was a time when small-donation fundraising of the sort that Barack Obama has done this year was not only unprecedented, but unimaginable.  It was a time when going on television with her husband and gutting it out when he was accused of scandal was enough to win.  It was also a time when charisma and cool were working for the Clintons rather than against them.  ("Enough with the pretty speeches" was not a probably Democratic battle cry in 1992.)

Hillary Clinton was the person who brought back evil strategist Dick Morris to help her husband's campaign in 1996.  There was only one reason for that: these sorts of brass knuckle tactics have, historically, worked.  And, before you take too much solace in the notion that they didn't work this year, look at the campaign for a moment through Hillary's glasses.  She was not running a brass-knuckles campaign early in the process, when she thought she would need to unite Democrats behind her - and she lost, unable to regain her footing even in the two weeks after Super Tuesday, when Wisconsin and Hawaii topped off Obama's victory streak.  It was around that time that her campaign grew more harsh, not long after she replaced Patti Solis Doyle with Maggie Williams.  After that, she won more of the delegates the rest of the way out - helped, no doubt, by the luck of the draw as to which states were early and which late, and by Obama's decision not to complete at full power after May 6.  But, still, there's evidence, for those who choose to believe it, that these tactics work.

What works most, among these tactics, is not even one that is particularly insulting towards Obama, but rather insulting to those who "know better": an absolute and unswerving ability to believe and assert anything, without shame, so long as it advances one's position.  Hence the convenient shift of position on Florida and Michigan, the willingness to consider going after Obama's pledged delegates, the "Judas"-tossing attacks on apostates.  And some of it was aimed at making it tough for Obama should he win.  From the perspective of those of us who favored Obama, this included sins of reinforcing Republican frames, including the most damaging ones regarding Obama's being somehow "soft" on radical black ideology, being sexist, being inexperienced, and stealing the election from her.  The problem - which we don't yet know will be favorably resolved - is that while Hillary could turn on a dime after deciding to concede, her supporters might not.  Her various quotable statements about Obama also give Republicans enough ammunition for ads that ultimately will only be effectively countered if Hillary eats crow and admits that she was saying some things just to get elected.  That's hard for anyone to do, let alone someone with as much pride as the Senator from New York.  But she has made that bed.

It is for this reason, by the way, that some of the most over-the-top attacks against Hillary don't strike me as out of place.  The famous resubtitling of Hitler's tirades in the movie Downfall and the continuing reference of Hillary to Glenn Close's character of Alex in Fatal Attraction are aimed at the same target - Hillary's tenacity and will to believe - which, indeed, is evidence that the latter is not necessarily sexist.  Hillary's supporters asked why we Obama supporters were so scared of her, if she was truly so far behind.  The answer is that, given Hillary's powerful will, what happened today was not a foregone conclusion.  (And what happened today is not really a "conclusion" at all: she has the next five months to live up to her commitments, and they are hard ones.)  She could well have been willing to cut the baby in half, tear down the temple, cut off the party's nose to spite its face.  Her tactics right up to Harold Ickes's dark warnings at the RBC meeting a week ago and her attempted theft of Barack's thunder on Tuesday night were, in fact, designed to play on those fears to improve her hand.  We weren't afraid of her winning, at least after May 6, but of her making it impossible for Obama to win.  That fear was a recognition of her fierce competitiveness and her power.

(4) Consolation

Hillary was 44 when her husband first faced the scandal that almost knocked him out of the 1992 race, and she learned how to come back.  She learned, perhaps, a false lesson: that it's more possible to do than it really is.

The thing to bear in mind about Hillary for the past four months is that we were seeing her at her worst.  He state at the end of this campaign was, in fact, about as bad as could be imagined, because she had poured more of her heart into it for longer than any losing candidate of recent years and had come closer to winning than any except maybe Reagan in 1976.

She was legitimately shocked to find herself behind and to find that Super Tuesday did not come through for her.  She was shocked to find herself outshone; remember, Obama was not wowing people so much until his Jeff-Jack speech in Iowa last fall.  She pulled out her bag of sharp tricks only because she had no other choice if she wanted to stay in the race.

Psychologically, the worst thing for her may have been that she had to know that, as impressive as Obama was, she was done in by her own mistakes through February.  Using a baseball metaphors, she made a stupid base-running mistake - her failure to contest the caucuses, due partly to her failure to manage her campaign spending - and got thrown out at home nullifying the tying and the winning run.  (If you prefer football, go with "dropped an open pass in the end zone.")  Ultimately, it was her job to make sure that someone was keeping an eye on Solis Doyle to make sure the budget was OK; it was her job to bring in enough donations to contest the caucuses; it was her job to be "likable enough" to bring in money and votes.  And whether through hubris or negligence, she messed up what should have been a decisive early victory.

If you were as smart and driven as Hillary Clinton is, you would find that unbearable.

So she got stuck in a situation where the only path she had to victory was one of tearing her opponent down -- and unluckily for her, her happened to be an eloquent and gracious Black man.  What a horrible situation to be in -- especially on the public stage, especially on the threshold of history, especially after having made such a strategic blunder.  And worst of all, she wasn't entirely without hope.  She was too close to victory to cut bait without being thought a lily-livered quitter -- which is the last thing she is.  She was trapped by her proximity to success, and balancing the dreams of almost 18 million voters on her shoulders.

I wrote about what kept Hillary in the race, while many people sneered at her, in this (slightly re-edited) quote.

There is an example used in game theory called a dollar auction, where you offer to auction off a dollar for as little as a penny.  The only trick is that both the top and the second-highest (i.e., losing) bid have to pay up.  Do this, and you can get people to pay $3 or $4 for a dollar, because they don't want to be the one who comes in second.  (It's related to the sunk cost problem.)  Watching people trapped in a dollar auction is pathetic.  They want out and they can't bear to get out.  After all, if the other side gives up first, they win.

Hillary is losing a dollar auction, designed by quirk of scheduling fate and too-narrow late victories to string her along so that she can't quite accept defeat.  It has to be torturing her, especially given her knowledge that he own campaign blew it in February by not contesting the caucus states -- and that this was in turn largely because she was not likable enough to raise enough money.

She's staying in because she's being tortured by fate, which won't let her out easily.

She didn't handle it well; few would.  We saw her at her worst.  Now I hope we'll see her at her best.

(5) Conclusion

Hillary was 44 when I fell in love with what she represented.  But she will not be President number 44, or indeed, likely, ever President at all.  I know what I want from her: not merely to fight for Obama like she is fighting for herself, but also to dedicate herself to one crusade above all: universal health care.  That seems to be what Obama wants of her as well, and he may well be willing to defer to her expertise.  That legacy, if she embraces it, would be - if not quite as good as the Presidency - great enough to satisfy any politician.  The Hillary who was 44 in 1992 would probably recognize how great a legacy it would be.  I hope that she recaptures that spirit of her youth.


Poll
Hillary at 44 most reminds me of
Hillary at 60
Michelle Obama
Elizabeth Edwards
Barbara Bush
Laura Bush
how much I liked the hairband

Votes: 12
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Some maniacs yelled "hillaryis44!" (none / 0)

but what I wish for her now is still a wonderful fate -- to go back and recapture everything that she was in those days when Hillary was 44, and the world awaited her.


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 02:56:04 PM EST

This cross-post almost didn't happen (none / 0)

When I started the diary, I had intended to post it both on Daily Kos and here.  Then section 3 went in a direction that I thought would probably not be appreciated here, so I thought maybe I wouldn't.  Today, I decided "what the hell."  There's more here -- at least I hope -- that fosters agreement than dissension among our ranks.

That raises the question of what we supporters of the various candidates ought to feel entitled to say in continued discussion, how lightly we must feel the need to tread.  Here's my take.

I think that it's fair for me to say the things I say in section 3, especially in the context of the rest of the diary, and I expect that people will disagree.  I have tried to explain why I feel I do about what I expect people might find the most upsetting -- the (admittedly) vicious satires of Hillary that were spread around -- and while I don't expect you to like it, I don't think that explanation, as opposed to leering celebration, of it is out of bounds.

The price of that opinion is that I know that there are things that Clinton supporters continue to believe but that drive me crazy -- the popular vote argument, the inexperience argument -- that I will have to endure with good humor.  I may argue back, but I know that you are entitled to continue to hold your opinion.

Then again, I was an Edwards supporter -- I've already had to learn to lose with grace and dignity once this year, and I know it isn't fun.

Now, as Obama recently said, we have to win.


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:03:13 PM EST

superb points (2.00 / 1)

and I hope for every Obama supporter and every Daily Kos poster to get this. It is important for people to know how important it was to have the Presidency in the 90's, and how without it, we'd be in a worse position than we are now. I highly suggest you cross post this at the Daily Kos, because yea, it will get eaten up like a person who gets thrown into a lions den, but perhaps some will read and listen. Its a GOOD thing we barred Casey from the Convention in 1992. I dont' know why some even in the liberal community don't get it. The CASEYS are DLC Democrats, who the Kos professes to hate, but now love because they hate the Clintons.


by Lakrosse on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:12:28 PM EST

Re: superb points (none / 0)

Um, that's both incorrect and self-contradictory.

Kos doesn't like Bob Casey because he supported Clinton.  Kos likes Casey, and has for years now, because he was the best shot we had to take out Rick Santorum in a critical election year and win the Senate.  

And it's odd that you would, in one line, recognize the political need to win in 1992 and prevent a further erosion of progressive gains, and in another line complain about a candidate who we needed to win in order to control the Senate and prevent a further erosion of progressive gains!


by Jay R on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: superb points (none / 0)

Thanks -- this was posted on DKos yesterday and got a favorable, if limited, reception.


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was 44 (2.00 / 1)

dkos only cares about his own self promotion so he can be the next Donna Brazil.  That will never happen after his conduct in this election.  There is no place in the democratic party for hate misters.

david


by giusd on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:41:07 PM EST

Danby, man, you ain't gettin' it! (none / 0)

I loved the post, by the way...minus the "reminders" as to why Hillary lost--and why you supported your guy--in section III.

For the record, I'm a HRC supporter that will now contribute to and work for Obama. That being said, next time you consider cross-posting over here, a little advice...

Things are still quite unconscionably F.U.B.A.R. at "home"--over at DKos.

The remaining vestiges of Hillary-hate come to the surface in many--if not most threads--and quite obviously even in your own words here.

To chastise HRC in Section III of your attempt at even-handedness in your cross-post--whom you failed to recognize captured HALF the freakin' vote in the Party--is, IMHO, inappropriate.

To make hay out of why she waited until the end of the week--"three days"--after Tuesday to endorse Obama is absurd. And, typical of hardcore Obama supporters' attempts at justifying their underlying contempt of her, even now.

I've already gone on record as an Obama supporter in the past few days. Someone cross-posted by Tuesday night diary over there, and it made it to the top of the Rec List on DKos, with approx. 500 comments and "Boo-yahs" and almost twice as many rec's.

So much for the "lockerroom" talk.

There's an intense amount of Hillary-hate and animosity that exists between subsets of the camp's supporters now.

But, if Obama wants to win (I believe that's supposed to be the concept here, right?) it's incumbent upon his supporters effectively reaching out to all of HRC's supporters and winning them over.

That's sure as hell not happening effectively over at DKos at the moment, despite their claims to the contrary. (Miss Laura's post from yesterday was abso-freakin'-lutely--pathetically the lamest of the lame, IMHO.) And, your diary here--where you can't help yourself but reference Hitler and "remind" us of how "awful" her campaign was, while failing to mention that it was very much a two-sided hatefest between the two camps, isn't very helpful either.

I've already made up my mind what I'm doing. This comment isn't about my sentiments. It's about others'.

Hillary's no longer runnign for anything. Barack is the one seeking support.

Think about it. And, please, I hope you and others will make more of an attempt to clean up the mess at "home." Things are still quite f**ked-up over at DKos as I write this. IMHO.

It is not a recipe for the ongoing efforts at unity within our Party and the march to hopeful victory in November.

The polls and reassurances we're now seeing here and on other blogs belie the upcoment torrent of 527 hate media the is on the horizon.

It's going to take every vote.

On that note, I hope you'll go back to DKos and tell them they've still got things to attend to there if their serious about overcoming their Hillary-hate and egos on the road to doing everything they can to stop disaffecting fellow Dems come November.

Or, not...


by bobswern on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:44:56 PM EST

This doesn't help either, Bob. (none / 0)

To chastise HRC in Section III of your attempt at even-handedness in your cross-post--whom you failed to recognize captured HALF the freakin' vote in the Party--is, IMHO, inappropriate.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, badgering Clinton supporters to ignore their grievances over the primary, especially legitimate ones, is not the way to get them to vote for Obama.

That said, badgering Obama supporters to ignore their grievances over the primary, especially legitimate ones, is not the way to get them to stop badgering Clinton supporters.


by nathanp on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:06:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The goal's to elect Obama in November (none / 0)

Hillary lost. I'm over it. I'm supporting Obama.

I even went over to DKos and did a lot of reading in the hope of making an effort to contribute more there in coming weeks.

What I read there was little better than what I was reading prior to the past week.

IMHO, it's about electing Obama supporter's candidate.

IMHO, that's only going to happen if Obama's supporters make a concerted and quite real effort to  reach out to Clinton's supporters.

In this instance, the ball is in Obama's (and Obama's supporter's) court. For practical purposes, it's not a two-way street.

To say Clinton's not doing everything she can by leading by example is not the right way to start off this dialogue, especially in light of her comments and magnanimous actions over the past few days.


by bobswern on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:24:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Not sure this is correct... (none / 0)


IMHO, it's about electing Obama supporter's candidate.

It's about electing the Democrat's candidate, isn't it?  It's about electing the Progressives' best hope - albeit BHO is not the most progressive - Isn't it?  It's about electing this country's better option, even if not the most ideal one, isn't it?

The idea that we will base our support of the next leader of the US on the behavior of some anonymous blowhards is akin to basing the products I purchase on whether my neighbor, who uses the same, acts nice.  I don't get my neighbors with my sugar - just sweet coffee.


To kill one person is murder. To kill thousands is foreign policy." - Chinese writer Moh-Tze
by ILean Left on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:53:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The goal's to elect Obama in November (none / 0)

Well, at this point it looks like Hillary will do what is right so that's all good. But it's hard for me to forget that it took 200 SDs to get her to do it. I don't trust her at all, but maybe it's too soon for both sides to be "over it" yet. I think some people are expecting the feelings to mend much faster than is possible. I also think it'll happen much faster if we stop badgering people on the other side about unity. I think it'll happen soon enough.


by Becky G on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 06:03:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The goal's to elect Obama in November (none / 0)

We're still writing the history of what has happened this year.  Of course it's still contentious.

(P.S.  This is an expression of agreement, not a challenge.)


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Danby, man, you ain't gettin' it! (none / 0)

I'm not really worried about getting your vote.  Some people -- I think very disproportionately on the Web -- will vote against Obama and their own interests because they were dissed.  Most people, like you, recognize that Iraq and the Supreme Court alone would justify the vote.  It would have justified my voting for Hillary in the general, as I have said from the start.

I think that there are bounds to what discussion is useful between supporters of the two candidates, and there can be discussion of what those bounds are.  Ideally, it won't get in the way of unity.  If it does for now, well there's still three months until Labor Day.  I've stayed within the bounds as I see them.  There are things you say above with which I disagree, but they all seem without bounds.

I have my own problems with some of the FPers.  I don't remember Miss Laura's post offhand, but I will take your word that you didn't find it helpful.

I think it's helpful simply to accept that we are going to disagree -- a lot -- and that so long as that disagreement is within bounds it doesn't matter that much.  I still have strong feelings about many primary races and I can still work with people with whom I disagreed.


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

She was a RealDem who was still 10 years from blundering into voting for the worst aspects of Bush's odius agenda in the name of political expediency.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 03:51:09 PM EST

Obama wins... (none / 0)

...when the Hillary-hate ends.

This comment is soooo last month....


by bobswern on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 04:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you don't want to hear the truth (none / 0)

don't try to create a false myth.


Anybody's vote is worth having. But not everybody's vote is worth campaigning for.
by Freespeechzone on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:08:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was 44 (2.00 / 2)

So, Hillary wasn't ladylike in your eyes as far as being sweet and humble the whole way through and staying that subordinate kindof cutely stridant woman that you were so fond of when she was 44.  Half way through she got too hard on your candidate and started really relating to the people where your candidate started falling on his ass.  Gasp.  We all know not to touch your candidate in a way that could hurt him.   And once she didn't smile and act all ladylike and gorgeous like you remember her, then she became evil and horrid to you.

Basically to wrap it all up.  She was cute and admirable when she was feisty and back talking,  until she started acting like
an extremely real life capable experienced  political candidate, an actual person who could give the same as she can take, someone who wasn't willing to lie down and die rather than fight the haters and the media, fight for regular people who were depending on her.
See, I can analyse too. She might not win the nomination, but she isn't going to sit down and be quiet and look pretty for you.  Yeah your 1992 is gone.  Welcome to today.


by Scotch on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:07:08 PM EST

Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

I don't recognize my sentiments in your comment and I don't find it worth debating with you.

(See how easy it is, folks?)


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 07:53:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was 44 (2.00 / 1)

No desire to debate you.  I know your mindset and there is nothing there to debate.


by Scotch on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

The point is over there.  Hurry, look fast before it's gone!

Nope, you missed it.  Oh well, maybe later.


by Jay R on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:26:12 PM EST

Re: Hillary was 44 (2.00 / 1)

that was directed to Scotch, not Danby...


by Jay R on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

Look I admire Hillary Clinton GREATLY (see past diaries), but noone can accurately ever accuse her of being an attractive woman. She was given major makeovers after the onslaught she received b/c of her looks & of course her headbands were then mass examined (@@)I honestly though don't understand why a woman's looks need to be a part of this conversation - I mean how many unattractive male presidents have we had?  And yet that is okay, however when a woman is in power a discussion needs to be had as to if she is good looking or not.


by jrsygrl on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 05:30:40 PM EST

Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

As with Obama, as with Edwards, as with Bill Clinton, as with Romney, as with Huckabee, as with the Kennedys, as with Reagan -- as, from the other direction, with Kucinich -- a politician's looks are always at issue.  Is that enough to address your "we only discuss this about women" point, or need I go on?

My point was that, in 1992, she had all of the characteristics that I or my friends would want to see in a politician, including the allure (which stems from multiple sources, looks being only one.)  It is relevant to the conversation because that's part of what people care about.

As for whether I (or anyone else) thought that Hillary was attractive in 1992, physically or overall -- um, do you want me to take a lie detector test?  She looks good for 60 now, and she was quite attractive at 44.  Gennifer Flowers famously and cattily commented on her having wide hips.  To which I say: OK, so?


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 08:03:04 PM EST
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Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

I remember back in 1993/1994 remarking to some male co-workers who were making light of Hillary's looks

I remarked she is a handsome woman.  I say handsome because she is not a "traditional" beauty.  I used that word because I felt at that time, and still do today, that her beauty would grow as she ages.  I glad to say I was correct.  I think she is more beautiful today than she was at 44.  

We used to use the word handsome to describe "non-traditional" attractive women - it is not stating they are masculine at all.


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 09:45:24 PM EST
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Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

As with Bush (I & II), as with McCain, as with Reagen, as with Carter, as with Johnson.  For Christ sakes there is an male amputee in office - I somehow doubt that a female counterpart with that malady would become a public figure. @@

Well, for her sake that is nice you think she is attractive.  The fact that she is very UNattractive (physically) was a big political issue - so alot of time was spent making her over.  Like I said I love her - but I wouldn't physically covet looking like her- that is for sure.  Of course her physical attractiveness means nothing to me when considering her qualifications for office.


by jrsygrl on Sun Jun 08, 2008 at 10:22:42 PM EST
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Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

Christine Cegelis was a female amputee who could have entered Congress in 2006.

"The fact that she is very UNattractive (physically)" -- sorry, it may be an opinion, as is mine, but it is not a "fact".


"All I'm doing is trying to look at things objectively and arrive at a solution to a very difficult situation." Major Danby in Catch-22 ch. 42
by Major Danby on Mon Jun 09, 2008 at 03:15:39 AM EST
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Re: Hillary was 44 (none / 0)

I don't think her physical features would be considered attractive by an sort of experts in the field but whatever, more importantly I think she is beautiful as a person and for what she has contributed to the country.


by jrsygrl on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 12:34:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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